Curse

ShadowNife · Oct 14, 2005, 05:55 AM // 05:55

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT AHEAD. CLOSE WINDOW IF NEED BE.

Several long responses warrant my own long response to give it proper address, so these are my following thoughts on the presented anti-running arguments.

Dax:

1. Firstly, aside from the lack of experience I don't think they take the game as seriously as someone who took the time...gives the impression that that is the way to play the game. "We're not going to invite you unless you have this and that" ect.

- Taking the game as seriously and time commitment I really think is a factor of personal interest and style rather than something that should be weighed in this discussion. There are many people who do not do the side quests and progress through the game through missions only because they can only afford to play for a little bit each week. Running would get these people to places slightly faster I suppose, but to assume that by not running them, they will have any more commitment I think is a false assumption.

- The idea of giving new players that this is the only way the game is played I don't think is really that big of a deal. When I started playing and when my two friends started playing, we all basically had the understanding that if you pay for the run, you get new skills faster but it was in no way necessary. Then again, if you just think about it logically, why would a game include a portion that REQUIRES another person to run you through? What would all the first generation people do? I doubt a game would base their gameplay around something as arbitrary as human players that can charge anything they want since it isn't regulated by the game.

- Personally I have never heard of people kicking me for not having a certain skill that they request. If this happens commonly I'm not aware of it but I doubt this would carry very far as the majority of players still take the full path through the storyline, so that particular group probably won't get very far if they request Blood is Power at Bloodstone Fen. Most of the time they ask what build you have, like healing if you are monk or traps/interrupt as a ranger.

2. ...so how much of a leap is it to buy gold on Ebay? Everyone complains about bots, but if there was no one buying gold there'd be no need for them.

- I don't really see how this links to running unless you're saying by creating beggars, you induce Ebay-ing gold. I don't really think either part of this statement is true, though the second could be to a certain extent. Beggars exist in any game, even if it doesn't have runners, just due to human nature. If people buy gold from Ebay, it's because they want something fast without working for it. From what I know, most people who purchase ebay gold actually buy it when they buy the game as a jump-start, not as a method of getting something (I really have no way of knowing for sure, but this is what I have deduced from talking to players in game). Most botters also don't farm to sell gold on ebay; there are far more botters and farmers than gold sellers. The main purpose of botters is to get equipment or the gold to purchase equipment.

octaviancmb:

1. Regardless of who bears responsibility, rushed players affect our PvE gameplay. We can quibble over how large a contributing factor that has been, but such quibbling will not ameliorate anything. Yes, it's our choice, but everything derives from the root choice to play the game in the first place. The argument you're missing is that PvE players are having to deal with these rushed idiots.

- I don't think it's fair to ban running due to a minority group of people who are idiots. You state that quibbling about how large a contributing factor it is would not ameliorate anything, and sure I agree with that. I never said that belittling the effects of running would solve the idiocy of those who were run, i even conceded that runners have a contribution. However, how large the factor it contributes does have an affect on how big of an issue this truly is. Going to Sanctum Cay, you most likely will find a few underleveled people who were run trying to form a party for the mission, but there are also dozens of others who are doing the mission also. If you are saying that you can't circumvent parties with these few low-leveled characters in order to progress, it just shows that you're either impatient or too lazy to find a proper party. Chances are the parties that take on these low levels were 1) started by the low leveled people in which case you just reject, or 2) in a rush to start the mission so most often will not have an even build that will carry you through the mission anyways. Saying that it "affects your gameplay" by having to actually look at the party you join isn't a legitimate argument against running. Dealing with these rushed idiots takes mere seconds to reject their parties or find new ones.

- Yes, I would agree with you that everything in the PvE portion game pretty much leaves it open to you in terms of choice. You don't have to group with humans, but if you do you have to accept you made a conscious decision to do so. Anytime you deal with other humans, you deal with the possibilities that there are idiot wammos, people who drop out, and complete lunatics but if you feel it's worth the human interaction, you take that chance. I personally only do mission with humans only because I think it increases my enjoyment of the game. I just spend the tiny bit of extra effort beforehand to see I don't have any underleveled teammates and that they are all present with roles in mind before starting. If you don't do that yourself, you can't really blame anyone but yourself.

2. Of the many different ways of learning how to succeed at Guild Wars, all of them require you to play it.

- Sure I agree with you, playing is the only way to learn. Let's think about this though, why would you buy a game just get run through? People get run for various reasons, but the end result is always to play SOMETHING. If it's a second or third player, they know what parts they enjoy the most and therefore get to that part and that maximizes their enjoyment of the gameplay. I guess you could say that I'm making it one sided that by using the example of 2nd and 3rd players is narrowly scoped because people on their first characters are being run. I would argue that my assumption that only this is only an issue with 2nd and 3rd characters because i think it's a safe assumption that only people who have gone through the game at least once would have the money to pay for any significant length run. Most newbs will get run from piken to courthouse and maybe yak's bend, and say henge of denravi to maguuma stade or from druid's outlook to The Wilds mission. I don't think that this really detracts from their gameplay or "skill" that much seeing as they still have to play the mission, which is where I believe most poeple learn how to deal with mobs. Furthermore, it really does not take that much to succeed in Guild Wars, though I would say energy management and interrupting are two things that take some time to learn. A warrior repeatedly alternating between attacks will get him through the game and really doesn't take any skill at all.

3. Your analogy is false. Enabling a morally reprehensible act, even one that we inadvertantly enable a year later, is still, in itself, morally reprehensible...it is patently absurd to compare running/rushing with anything from the real world. Choose better analogies.

- I really don't see why knife analogy isn't applicable so if you would like to explain that'd be cool. In the example of the Columbine shootings that you brought up, my answer would be: no, i don't think that the gun sellers would be morally reprehensible for something they have no control over. In your hypothetical situtation of the killers obtaining guns a year before the actual crime, the gun dealers should not be blamed for several reasons. First, the vending of guns is not illegal in itself as long as it follows regulation. Since you are talking about moral obligations, we'll assume that the sale was legal in that they were eligible to own a gun for self-defense. The gun vender has no idea what intention the buyer will have a year later. If a particular buyer has his family killed in front of his eyes and then tortured between the purchase of the gun and when he goes and kills the people who did it, do you think blaming the gun vender would be fair? I can link this to knives that if someone sells a kitchen knives set as cutlery to a person but that person later on uses one of those knives to kill another person, the knife makers should not be blamed because everything they did was legal. Going back to Guild Wars, runners are legal according to GW rules and Devs so they are not breaking any rules by running people. Lornars Pass was deliberately put there as a challenge to runners, so what the people who are run do as a future result of being run should not be the runners fault. The way to fix this would not be to kill running I personally think, but to just limit what skills you can use in those arenas in accordance to what is feasibly attainable at that particular point. In regards to weapons and armor, get level requirements for them to prevent such twinkers but killing running I don't believe is the solution.

4. Guild Wars *has* a lengthy PvE world; if it wasn't lengthy, people would not *need* to be rushed through it, they could just play. I'm afraid your fundamental assumptions through this point are flawed. That Guild Wars is "focused" on PvP is your opinion, and hardly fact. And although you find the PvE world boring, many people do not.

- I think that you also have some funndamental assumptions and I also think that Guild Wars is PvP based for several reasons. First, the level cap is level 20, which is basically unheard of in most MMORPGs, epecially since level 20 is so easy to achieve. Most MMORPGs that are based around PvE contents have much higher level caps as well as many more side quests that people need to "grind" to get to higher levels or skills. Grind in that sense is playing the PvE world. In Guild Wars, even with the minimal grind, there are people complaining that it is taking too long to get certain things. You hear this in other games sure, but not in the intensity and sheer percentage as in Guild Wars. People bought this game under the impression that it was an instant gratification game since thats the way it was advertised, "instant PvP". Furthermore, the idea that armors have no level requirements and all weapons besides those close to max are basically useless with no superweapons or armor all go toward the end of equality in the PvP world. In most MMORPG, there is an inherent hierarchy of those with more hours as they obtained the better items and are able to "own" the PvE world. Also looking at the number of hours needed to get to level 20 or complete the game, it is pretty short comparatively.

- Just to clarily, I never said I find the PvE world boring; in fact I rarely venture in to the PvP world. I just said there are certain sections that people find boring and rather not play through just to progress to something they like. Personally for me that area is Old Ascalon, just because I don't enjoy the overcast sky and overall dreary nature of the land, but also thankfully I don't need to be run past it since it's pretty easy to get to piken and then courthouse by yourself.

I agree with you in that we must weigh the benefits and costs of having the notion of running in Guild Wars and I personally find it beneficial and not have many adverse effects on most players.

Sister Rosette:

- Read my post before you reply please: i basically stated what you said, in that begging exists no matter what and that running may add to it minisculely but should not be denounced for this reason. If you follow my insanely long posts, you also see I support running, not try to undermine it.

Eltargrim:

1. My problem is when first-time players who haven't even HEARD of Droknar's (And yes, I've seen them) are getting run.

- I'm not sure why someone would get run to a place they've never heard of, or how they would have the funds to pay for such a run if they've never heard of Droknars Forge. So I guess until you provide some more evidence or reasoning, I'll just leave this be.

Dax #2:

1. While I respect your opinion, whats the difference and do people check?
The problem is they don't... it's something that is totally uncontrolled.

- Why is it the responsibility of the runner to check who they are running? There are no rules in Guild Wars delineating who can be run and who can't, so to place the moral burden upon runners to do it is unfair.

2. Its all a matter of perception, why bother to play the game through the traditional way when you see that many people do not?

- you would play it the traditional way because you find it enjoyable. Just because I know people do drugs in society and cheat on tests doesnt necessarily mean I will do it. I find that playing through the gameplay on the parts I like and doing all the quests available is an enjoyable process and knowing that I can be run really won't change my mind about that. It's synonymous to not doing drugs or cheating due to my principles and rules of conduct.

YAY long post that took forever to type. Btw, octaviancmb and Dax i respect your opinions and I have absolutely nothing against you guys. These posts are just for the mere exercise of defending a position and presenting my views. You guys are great people.

Urda · Oct 14, 2005, 09:53 AM // 09:53

My suggestion :

First-time-players may NOT enter snake dance.

When finishing the game (or at least arriving at drognars) for the first time, the account is allowed to enter snake dance with any char. This avoids a lot of begging, makes sure people have a minimum experience (even valuable on other professions) and still makes it possible to quicklevel your second char without beeing forced to repeat the entire game.

Seems fair to me. Any suggestions about this ?

Dax · Oct 14, 2005, 02:53 PM // 14:53

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